1977 10 03J
'I
2608
CITY OF MOSES LAKE
CITY COUNCIL MINUTES
October 3, 1977SPECIALCOUNCILSESSIONCITY^j^^
COUNCIL ROOM 8:00 P.M.
Present:Don Swanson,Bob Hill,Bill Moe,Norm Johnson,Jim Barney and Eric Skaug.
Absent:Kent Jones
The special meeting was called to order by Mayor Don Swanson.Mr.Swanson /n •*//
introduced Dr.Jim Wickman,from the University of Washington,Risk Management,'<'
and then turned the meeting over to Dr.Wickman.
Dr.Wickman stated that it had been 20-25 years since he had been in Moses Lake
and that the city had certainly grown since.He stated that he was here to assist
the Council in regard to municipal insurance,and was glad to be here.A good
deal of his teaching at the University has been to a philosophy of risk manage
ment and dealing with an uncertain world and unpleasant services.The name of the
game is not just to buy insurance at the lowest possible cost to the city but to
go into any enterprise,insurance premiums are a part of the costs.Against that
you have some offsets recovered from insurance companies and recovery from others.
How much does it cost for being in an uncertain world?Looking at municipalities,
insurance companies have been troubled with trends of loses.We are living in a
changing social environment in which you have water quality,excess polution
quality,street quality,and municipalities can end up being in a financial vice.
Being on this side of the mountains,he quoted an article in today's Spokesmans
Review where the city of Spokane lost a suit brought by people living along the
Spokane River,claiming the city polluted the river,and the Judge in the case
awarded the people over $5,000,000.00 in damages.This was a difficult case in
which certain permits were obtained,but the Judge felt the municipality was
liable.
One of the observations in the insurance market is that when times get tough
one of their responses is to see the figures in a certain prespective and tighten
up,and people looking for coverage are not going to be able to find it.
They have experienced bad shocks from insurance claims and insurance underwriters
are not at the moment enthusiastic in insuring municipalities.The thing about
the kind of process that you are considering undertaking is that you can not get
away from a continuing concern.If you are going to make this process work and
work well for you,you should be mindful of how the market is now. Be aware that
they have something that you may very well want to buy.They very well may
become convinced that the city of Moses Lake is trying to shop around and you
may find out that they may not be too anxious to continue coverage.
I will give you a suggestion that amounts to a proposal that you can discuss
among yourselves.I tried to draft this so that people in the insurance industry
will see it favorably.If they read carefully they will see that the City of
Moses Lake is asking for proposals,then they will evaluate these proposals and
your needs,but that you are not asking for bids.One way to raise the market
is requesting bids.Somebody will say (no matter how you write it)—"They
are asking for bids".The matter of buying insurance is a matter of buying a
set of services that includes money going to insurance companies and money
coming back - a matter of "forward"buying of services.Even the suppliers of
products or services are not anxious to get a long term commitment.The
buying of insurance,since it involves services in an uncertain world is some
thing different then trying to buy a product or untangible goods that are needed.
Dr. Wickman distributed an article that appeared in "Business Insurance, September
1977" magazine. This particular article emphasizes or presents in its own way
the comments that he made earlier that shopping can drive up the prices. When
more than one broker or more than one agent is contacted,it seem inevitably to have
the effect of driving up the prices or making the underwriter less and less willing
to talk to anybody.If brokers see the same proposal for coverage five times,
it wastes the suppliers time and leads him to believe that the insured (the
City of Moses Lake) is more interested in price than he is in stability.That
is something that the City of Moses Lake wants to avoid.It isn't just the
lowest price of insurance this year, but a long range plan.
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CITY COUNCIL MINUTES: Page 2 October 3, 1977
Dr. Wickman handed out a proposal that he had prepared for the council's
consideration.He felt this would express the council's desire to deal with
the insurance matters to exposures to losses,emphasizing that this proposal
should invite only a designated or limited number of proposers to present
proposals to the City of Moses Lake.
He also emphasized that an awareness that securing adequate municipal coverage,
and continuing coverage for next year and the year after and the year after
that is difficult.He felt sure the Council's wishes were to find out all kinds of
ideas and alternative ways but not at the expense of messing up or blowing part of
the relationship that you now currently enjoy with your insurance broker,which
has worked for quite some time. Do avoid disturbing the market. Ask those
insurance agents and brokers that they have a "Gentlemens Agreement",so that
not even two of them go to the same insurance company and request a quote on
this, or on what basis can you do this.Avoid duplicating and overlapping
requests for coverage.
He explained that in the last paragraph he urges the proposers to use their
accumulative experience, insight,awareness and expertise to come up with a
program particular to the City of Moses Lake.
He recommended giving the proposers a package of information, in which the
schedules (A-K) are included for their consideration,so they can do something
specifically for Moses Lake.
Mr. Skaug asked if the city should not make the present insurance program avail
able to the proposers.Dr.Wickman stated that they should not,that the
proposer should "do their own thing",using their explicit contacts,explicit
clauses,explicit limits, etc.
Mr. Skaug agreed with Dr. Wickman and felt that we should establish minimum
coverage. Dr. Wickman said that if you say "we have to have this much insurance"
the proposers could not then move back and forth between insurance coverage and
non insurance. It may be that noninsurance may develop to be more efficient in
certain respects.
Mr. Barney asked if they had to have a basic format questioning the deductible
portion on automobiles,where a company could come up with a $100 deductible and
another a different deductible?Dr.Wickman said that the city would be better
served by not doing that. Mr.Barney cited the case of a lawsuit in Coeur
d'Alene,Idaho,where they did not have adequate coverage.He felt that the City
should not be underinsured.Dr.Wickman stated that the cheapest package around
is no buy,but if losses,plus insurance premiums,plus the cost of preventing
losses,against insurance coverage and other sources of money,the net could be
pretty important.
Mr.Skaug asked if Dr.Wickman would be helping the Council with the proposals,
and he answered that he would analyze the exposures to the city,short time or
long range proposals,and a program of loss prevention.
Mr.Johnson asked if we would be dealing with the insurance companies directly,
or with the insurance agents and brokers.Dr.Wickman answered that the proposals
would be coming from the agents and brokers,and they would get assistance from
the companies,and you may very well be visited by loss control people who may
want to offer suggestions.He wants the proposers to indicate which insurance
companies they expect to deal with,what experience and qualifications they have,
and the on-going continuous service they can offer. He emphasized that the best
thing would be to invite only a few qualified agents or brokers.
Mr.Skaug asked about not disclosing details, or would it be on a first come first
serve basis, assuming Safeco carries the greatest percentage of the insurance.
Dr. Wickman answered that duplicate requests for quotes fragments the market.
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CITY COUNCIL MINUTES:Page 3 October 3,1977
Mr.Hill stated that the City would have to give permission for Safeco to give
out quotes, and Mr. Barney stated that if the proposers could not use Safeco then
they may not want to bid.
Dr.Hickman said he would suggest that they want to get more than two to get some
variety,but you don't want to go to more than five or six.
Mr. Johnson said that they should minimize the companies that they ask for
proposals and then they do the "brain picking".
Mr.Barney stated that the proposers should have the alternative to use the
companies they can use. Dr.Wickman asked if the Council understood that if
you get duplicate requests from different agents it would be an undesirable effect
on the City of Moses Lake,and about the third time the underwriter hears from
somebody,he may draw back from Moses Lake.
Mr.Barney asked if we could tell a broker he can not use Safeco?Dr.Wickman
stated that surely the Council doesn't have to "win" the game at the expense of
the city.The brokers will realize that they are not going to do a good job
for this potential client if they all get in there. They should have a gentle
mens agreement.
Mr.Skaug asked about a "Broker of Record"letter.Dr.Wickman stated that a
broker of record letter designates some person or organization to act on your
behalf.Mr.Skaug asked if that same letter of record would work on a solicitation
basis?Dr.Wickman answered that it would if they were willing to direct it to
only certain companies.
Mr.Barney asked what insurance companies are doing the insurance field? Dr.
Wickman said the primary companies are:Safeco,Transamerica,American States,
Firemens Fund (in part),Aetna (has been in it).More companies are withdrawing
from rather than coming into the muncipal business.Unless you enter into a
gentlemens agreement,you may come up with a program that the company may not
want to keep,and the company may not want to talk.
Mr. Hill said that if the December 1 date is used,would that give the Council
enough time to have the brokers present a policy by January 1, or if they move
it forward to November 15th,would the agents have adequate time to prepare their
proposals?Dr.Wickman answer that it would just barely.
Jim Barney moved that we go along with the letter for proposals so that we can
get it out to the insurance agents,second by Norm Johnson,unanimously passed.
Norm Johnson asked if this was a special meeting? The Mayor answered that it was.
Mr. Skaug commented that he was still concerned about the way the Council is going
to aid the City Manager,Mr.Waggener has to have some direction about what to do.
Mr.Hill asked if it would be better to invite whoever they chose to talk to the
Council.
Mr. Waggener stated that as he understood it you can't absolutely bind any one.We
are requesting that they make contacts,and if they chose to contact the same people,
how do you get around that?
Dr. Wickman stated that it is a matter of agents and brokers to consider the interests
of the City of Moses Lake first,and hope for the best.He said that through the
City Manager,Rogers & Norman should take some premium on being first.
Mr.Swanson said that right now the Council had 10 applications and since Dr.
Wickman advised to cut it down to 3 or 4, we can't invite them all. I would say set
a limit of 4 or less. Dr.Wickman said that any specific number is arbitrary,perhaps
3,but not more than 6.
Mr.Barney felt that some of the smaller dealers won't be interested,but we should
give them the opportunity,we can't restrict competition.
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CITY COUNCIL MINUTES:Page 4 October 3,1977
Mr.Waggener stated,you started out by restricting to local agents.
Mr. Moe asked if they had set a deadline,and Mr.Waggener answered that there were
8 schedules,and two schedules that did not meet the deadline.
Mr.Johnson stated that they were down to 8 and some were self eliminating.
The Mayor asked what the Council's feeling were about the two that came in late.
Mr.Barney said that he would like the Council to consider them.
Mr.Skaug asked if the Council wants Mr.Waggener to present the invitation to the
agents or brokers,or if they would meet with Council.Mr.Swanson answered that
Dr.Wickman should leave here with a clear understanding of what the Council wanted
to do. If Dr.Wickman felt we should invite the agents and tell them what is
expected,and the deadline and guidelines set forth.Dr.Wickman felt the Council
should resolve that.
Mr. Johnson stated that they were unloading the burden on Dr. Wickman. though the
Council didn't want to say it.
Mr. Hill stated that he thought the Council could handle it. If they use this
particular format,mail it out for them to read and set a meeting.
Mr. Skaug felt that it would be in the best interest of the City of Moses Lake to
have Rogers and Norman first,and he thought this should be spelled out.
Jim Barney felt that maybe there should be two that could contact the parent
company,say Fred S.James,and then have the two submit proposals.
This is what Mr.Skaug wanted cleared up,he said we were asking the City Manager to
say one thing and we should commit ourselves.
Mr.Swanson asked Dr.Wickman if he would have any objections to meeting with the
agents and brokers,and at that meeting the Council would find out how many proposers
they would have.Dr.Wickman stated that basically that decision was not his but
the Council's.
Mr.Skaug requested an answer to his question about how they were going to approach
the insurance market,by the time this thing goes to proposals,we are going to find
ourselves jostling the market and that is what we are trying to avoid.Mr.Moe
agreed that the Council should not in any way do that,but in going about it in
this manner,that was the risk they would take.
Mr.Johnson stated that that was the object of the meeting, to discuss that sort of
thing with them.
Mr. Skaug said that since they have adopted the format - can they leave the rest
open ended like that and still make it effective?
Mr. Moe asked who the proposers were, and Mr. Swanson said they the Council was
down to the point of selecting.
Mr.Waggener asked if they were suggesting a meeting with the proposers and if they
wanted to consider the two that came in late.Mr.Swanson said that it would be
just the ones in Moses Lake.Mr.Barney said he would like to see them in also.
Mr. Swanson said that by looking at the preproposals some had absolutely nothing
to offer and the Council would be wasting their time by inviting them. He said
they could pare this down to 5 rather rapidly.Mr.Barney said that suppose when
they were down to 5 just one turned in a proposal.
Mr.Skaug said that he would certainly consider past experience and past accounts
an important consideration.Mr. Barney answered that that would come from the
company itself.Mr.Swanson said that alot of that comes from the agent himself,
and Mr.Moe agreed with that. Mr. Moe stated that that had been the case with the
selection of the architect.Mr.Skaug felt that the City should not have to give
anyone their "baptism into municipal experience".
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CITY COUNCIL MINUTES:Page 5 October 3,1977
Mr. Swanson asked for any ideas about how to pick out 4, 5 or 6. After some
discussion the Mayor made a motion to select 5 out of the 10 proposers,Mr.Skaug
seconded and suggested that they take the names one at a time and the Council
would have to come to some consensus.
A vote was taken -the results were as follows:
Fred James -6 Yes Strong (Bernsen)- 2 No 4 Yes
Morgan Ins.- 5 No 1 Yes R.Trask -4 No 2 Yes
Rogers & Norman - 6 Yes Vrieling -4 No 2 Yes
Security Assoc. - 5 No 1 Yes Hanks & Field - 3 No 3 Yes
State Farm - 5 No 1 Yes Korach &Canfield - 1 No 5 Yes
The mayor pointed out that Fred James;Rogers &Norman;Strong (Bernsen);Hanks
and Field;and Korach and Canfield were the five chosen by Council.
Mr.Barney stated that he felt that they should all be given a chance and an
opportunity to present their proposals.Mr.Skaug stated that Council was looking
for the best.The Mayor said that some the the proposals were self eliminating,
and cited Robert Trask who did not answer alot of the questions.
Mr.Barney answered that the man has been here for 19 years,is a supporter of the
city, he is a taxpayer, and I don't think that we can turn him out because of that,
Mr.Swanson stated that Dr.Wickman recommended that we have no less than 3 and
no more than 6.
Mr. Johnson said then let's get Ephrata and Othello out of it.
Mr.Skaug disagreed with that,he thought they were one of the best qualified
people, we are selecting the best insurance for the city of Moses Lake. Mr.
Barney did not agree that the proposers should be eliminated by a vote,they
should have an opportunity to bid on the city's business.
After some further discussion,Mr.Barney made a motion to accept the proposals
from the ones that sent the preproposal questionnaire in, and to send them out
a letter and invite them to a meeting on Wednesday,October 12,1977,and present
them with data as recommended by Dr.Wickman,second by Mr.Hill.
Mr. Moe asked if this was a special meeting to get a smaller list? Mr. Swanson
stated that we will meet with Dr.Wickman and at that time set a deadline.Mr.
Moe stated that the motion was something different that what it started out.
A vote was taken on the motion. For: Swanson, Hill, Barney, Skaug, Johnson,
against:Moe.Motion passed.
The meeting was adjourned at 9:45 p.m.
Donald E. Swanson, Mayor
ATTEST:
&^ZU^L^
R. C.Bierma,City Clerk